Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Q&A

Post History

71%
+3 −0
Q&A Generalization of categorical product

posted 2y ago by Derek Elkins‭  ·  edited 2y ago by Derek Elkins‭

Answer
#2: Post edited by user avatar Derek Elkins‭ · 2023-02-11T00:51:11Z (almost 2 years ago)
  • The $F(\pi_i) = id$ doesn't really fit the form of a universal property. If we drop that constraint, we can present your universal property in terms of representability
  • $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong \{(f_1,f_2)\in\mathcal C(Y, X_1)\times\mathcal C(Y, X_2)\mid F(f_1) = F(f_2) \}$$
  • natural in $Y$. Note that this still guarantees that $F(\pi_1)=F(\pi_2)$. $\pi_1$ and $\pi_2$ are the components we get by choosing $Y=X_1 \times_F X_2$ and considering the image of $id_{X_1 \times_F X_2}$.
  • This doesn't really strike me as anything natural. Nevertheless, we can massage it a bit to get something maybe a little bit nicer if still not terribly natural. We can note that the representation can seen as a special case for the hom-set of a [comma category](https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/comma+category). In general, letting $H : \mathcal C \to \mathcal E$ and $K : \mathcal D \to \mathcal E$, the comma category, $H \downarrow K$, has as object triples $(C, \alpha, D)$ where $C$ is an object of $\mathcal C$, $D$ is an object of $\mathcal D$, and $\alpha : H(C) \to K(D)$. For morphisms, we have $$(H \downarrow K)((C, \alpha, D), (C', \alpha', D')) = \{(f_1, f_2)\in\mathcal C(C, C')\times\mathcal D(D, D')\mid \alpha' \circ H(f_1) = K(f_2) \circ \alpha \}$$
  • We immediately see that choosing $H = K = F$ and $\alpha = id_{F(Y)}$ and $\alpha' = id_{F(X_1)} = id_{F(X_2)}$ we get the representation above. More precisely, we want to consider $$(F \downarrow F)((Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This should be functorial in $Y$, so we define the functor $I_F(Y) = (Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y)$ and $I_F(g) = (g,g)$ which satisfies the constraint to be a morphism which just reduces to $F(g) = F(g)$ in this case. We can now write: $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This would almost be in the form of an adjunction if only we considered an arbitrary morphism (in $F \downarrow F$) as the codomain. So let's do that.
  • $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_\alpha X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, \alpha, X_2))$$ natural in $Y$ and $(X_1, \alpha, X_2)$, i.e. $I_F \dashv ({-})\times_{({-})}({-})$. Of course, for this to be meaningful we'd need to define the functor $(X_1, \alpha, X_2) \mapsto X_1 \times_\alpha X_2$. **Nevertheless, this transforms the question into looking for a right adjoint to $I_F$.** The universal property would be the same as the one you list (minus the $F(\pi_i) = id$ constraint) except you'd have $\alpha \circ F(f_1) = F(f_2)$ which breaks $F(f_1)=F(f_2)$ and seems slightly more natural to me. Of course, you can choose $\alpha=id_{F(X_1)}=id_{F(X_2)}$ whenever $F(X_1) = F(X_2)$.
  • The $F(\pi_i) = id$ doesn't really fit the form of a universal property. If we drop that constraint, we can present your universal property in terms of representability
  • $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong \{(f_1,f_2)\in\mathcal C(Y, X_1)\times\mathcal C(Y, X_2)\mid F(f_1) = F(f_2) \}$$
  • natural in $Y$. Note that this still guarantees that $F(\pi_1)=F(\pi_2)$. $\pi_1$ and $\pi_2$ are the components we get by choosing $Y=X_1 \times_F X_2$ and considering the image of $id_{X_1 \times_F X_2}$.
  • This doesn't really strike me as anything natural. Nevertheless, we can massage it a bit to get something maybe a little bit nicer if still not terribly natural. We can note that the representation can seen as a special case for the hom-set of a [comma category](https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/comma+category). In general, letting $H : \mathcal C \to \mathcal E$ and $K : \mathcal D \to \mathcal E$, the comma category, $H \downarrow K$, has as object triples $(C, \alpha, D)$ where $C$ is an object of $\mathcal C$, $D$ is an object of $\mathcal D$, and $\alpha : H(C) \to K(D)$. For morphisms, we have
  • $$(H \downarrow K)((C, \alpha, D), (C', \alpha', D')) = \{(f_1, f_2)\in\mathcal C(C, C')\times\mathcal D(D, D')\mid \alpha' \circ H(f_1) = K(f_2) \circ \alpha \}$$
  • We immediately see that choosing $H = K = F$ and $\alpha = id_{F(Y)}$ and $\alpha' = id_{F(X_1)} = id_{F(X_2)}$ we get the representation above. More precisely, we want to consider $$(F \downarrow F)((Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This should be functorial in $Y$, so we define the functor $I_F(Y) = (Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y)$ and $I_F(g) = (g,g)$ which satisfies the constraint to be a morphism which just reduces to $F(g) = F(g)$ in this case. We can now write: $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This would almost be in the form of an adjunction if only we considered an arbitrary morphism (in $F \downarrow F$) as the codomain. So let's do that.
  • $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_\alpha X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, \alpha, X_2))$$
  • natural in $Y$ and $(X_1, \alpha, X_2)$, i.e. $I_F \dashv ({-})\times_{({-})}({-})$. Of course, for this to be meaningful we'd need to define the functor $(X_1, \alpha, X_2) \mapsto X_1 \times_\alpha X_2$. **Nevertheless, this transforms the question into looking for a right adjoint to $I_F$.** The universal property would be the same as the one you list (minus the $F(\pi_i) = id$ constraint) except you'd have $\alpha \circ F(f_1) = F(f_2)$ which breaks $F(f_1)=F(f_2)$ and seems slightly more natural to me. Of course, you can choose $\alpha=id_{F(X_1)}=id_{F(X_2)}$ whenever $F(X_1) = F(X_2)$.
#1: Initial revision by user avatar Derek Elkins‭ · 2023-02-11T00:49:45Z (almost 2 years ago)
The $F(\pi_i) = id$ doesn't really fit the form of a universal property. If we drop that constraint, we can present your universal property in terms of representability
$$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong \{(f_1,f_2)\in\mathcal C(Y, X_1)\times\mathcal C(Y, X_2)\mid F(f_1) = F(f_2) \}$$
natural in $Y$. Note that this still guarantees that $F(\pi_1)=F(\pi_2)$. $\pi_1$ and $\pi_2$ are the components we get by choosing $Y=X_1 \times_F X_2$ and considering the image of $id_{X_1 \times_F X_2}$.

This doesn't really strike me as anything natural. Nevertheless, we can massage it a bit to get something maybe a little bit nicer if still not terribly natural. We can note that the representation can seen as a special case for the hom-set of a [comma category](https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/comma+category). In general, letting $H : \mathcal C \to \mathcal E$ and $K : \mathcal D \to \mathcal E$, the comma category, $H \downarrow K$, has as object triples $(C, \alpha, D)$ where $C$ is an object of $\mathcal C$, $D$ is an object of $\mathcal D$, and $\alpha : H(C) \to K(D)$. For morphisms, we have $$(H \downarrow K)((C, \alpha, D), (C', \alpha', D')) = \{(f_1, f_2)\in\mathcal C(C, C')\times\mathcal D(D, D')\mid \alpha' \circ H(f_1) = K(f_2) \circ \alpha \}$$

We immediately see that choosing $H = K = F$ and $\alpha = id_{F(Y)}$ and $\alpha' = id_{F(X_1)} = id_{F(X_2)}$ we get the representation above. More precisely, we want to consider $$(F \downarrow F)((Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This should be functorial in $Y$, so we define the functor $I_F(Y) = (Y, id_{F(Y)}, Y)$ and $I_F(g) = (g,g)$ which satisfies the constraint to be a morphism which just reduces to $F(g) = F(g)$ in this case. We can now write: $$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_F X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, id_{F(X_1)}, X_2))$$ This would almost be in the form of an adjunction if only we considered an arbitrary morphism (in $F \downarrow F$) as the codomain. So let's do that.

$$\mathcal C(Y, X_1 \times_\alpha X_2) \cong (F \downarrow F)(I_F(Y), (X_1, \alpha, X_2))$$ natural in $Y$ and $(X_1, \alpha, X_2)$, i.e. $I_F \dashv ({-})\times_{({-})}({-})$. Of course, for this to be meaningful we'd need to define the functor $(X_1, \alpha, X_2) \mapsto X_1 \times_\alpha X_2$. **Nevertheless, this transforms the question into looking for a right adjoint to $I_F$.** The universal property would be the same as the one you list (minus the $F(\pi_i) = id$ constraint) except you'd have $\alpha \circ F(f_1) = F(f_2)$ which breaks $F(f_1)=F(f_2)$ and seems slightly more natural to me. Of course, you can choose $\alpha=id_{F(X_1)}=id_{F(X_2)}$ whenever $F(X_1) = F(X_2)$.