Communities

Writing
Writing
Codidact Meta
Codidact Meta
The Great Outdoors
The Great Outdoors
Photography & Video
Photography & Video
Scientific Speculation
Scientific Speculation
Cooking
Cooking
Electrical Engineering
Electrical Engineering
Judaism
Judaism
Languages & Linguistics
Languages & Linguistics
Software Development
Software Development
Mathematics
Mathematics
Christianity
Christianity
Code Golf
Code Golf
Music
Music
Physics
Physics
Linux Systems
Linux Systems
Power Users
Power Users
Tabletop RPGs
Tabletop RPGs
Community Proposals
Community Proposals
tag:snake search within a tag
answers:0 unanswered questions
user:xxxx search by author id
score:0.5 posts with 0.5+ score
"snake oil" exact phrase
votes:4 posts with 4+ votes
created:<1w created < 1 week ago
post_type:xxxx type of post
Search help
Notifications
Mark all as read See all your notifications »
Q&A

Comments on Minimal non-standard number in non-standard models of PA

Parent

Minimal non-standard number in non-standard models of PA

+4
−1

Excuse me, if the question sounds too naive.

From Gödel's incompleteness theorem we know that there would be non-standard models where the Gödel sentence would be false. These models will have an initial segment isomorphic to standard natural numbers. Will there be a minimal non-standard number in such models such that every number smaller than it is a standard natural number and every number bigger than it would be non-standard ?

Since non-standard model would be a model of arithmetic then I think there should be a minimal non-standard number, but then maybe my concept is unclear about it. Any help?

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.
Why should this post be closed?

2 comment threads

x-post https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1ap6clo/minimal_nonstandard_number_in_nonstandard_model... (2 comments)
X-post https://www.reddit.com/r/modeltheory/comments/1ap68ix/minimal_nonstandard_number_in_nonstandar... (1 comment)
Post
+4
−0

Quite the opposite; in no non-standard model of Peano arithmetic is there a minimal non-standard number.

Consider the formula \(\phi(x) = \left(x = 0\right) \vee \exists y \left(x = S(y)\right)\). The first-order induction axiom for \(\phi\) is

\[ \phi(0) \wedge \forall x \bigl(\phi(x) \Rightarrow \phi(S(x))\bigr) \Rightarrow \forall x \phi(x) \]

\(\phi(0)\) is trivially true in any model. If we have \(\phi(x)\), and there exists a \(y\) such that \(x = S(y)\), then \(S(x) = S(S(y))\), giving us \(\phi(S(x))\). From the induction axiom, \(\phi\) holds for all numbers—every number is 0 or has a predecessor, in any model with first-order Peano induction.

The non-existence of a minimal non-standard number follows by contradiction: any number with a standard predecessor is itself standard, any number with a non-standard predecessor is not minimal, and any number with no predecessor is zero.

History
Why does this post require attention from curators or moderators?
You might want to add some details to your flag.

1 comment thread

but PA proves that every set definable in its language must have a minimal element, so will atleast set of non-standard numbers definable in PA have a minimal element ? (7 comments)
but PA proves that every set definable in its language must have a minimal element, so will atleast set of non-standard numbers definable in PA have a minimal element ?
Aditya‭ wrote 9 months ago

see this post https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/2930141/well-orders-on-non-standard-models-of-peano-arithmetic ,i think i may not be able to exprress myself clearly, this is what i am talking about, in this post, in the 1st answer there's a line saying ' a nonstandard model of PA is "internally" well-founded, but "externally" ill-founded. ' so atleast for the sets definable in the theory there has to be a least/minimal element... is this right now?

Aditya‭ wrote 9 months ago

yes it is copied, cuz i am the same guy, and i don't think posting the same thing from completely different websites should be counted as X-posting , i just desperately wanted a quick answer and as many different opinions possible... i certainly didn't posted the question on same website more than once.... so what exactly are you objecting at... what exactly is supposed to be the problem here ?

samcarter‭ wrote 9 months ago · edited 9 months ago

If you cross-post the same question on multiple sites, you should include links to all other versions of the question in every question. X-posting without explicit links has the risk of wasting both the time of users who might put time and effort into answering a post, which already has an answer elsewhere, as well as the time of users who might have the same problem but can't find the solutions you might have gotten on one of the other sites you x-posted your question. The purpose of Q&A sites like this is to build a lasting library of knowledge, not just to give you a quick answer.

Aditya‭ wrote 9 months ago · edited 9 months ago

" X-posting without explicit links has the risk of wasting both the time of users who might put time and effort into answering a post, which already has an answer elsewhere " - how do you prove the answers are exactly the same, what if the question requires thoughts and opinions of the person answering too... not every answer is the same, and you will get different insights from different answers which i think is beneficial for both the OP and other users... Although i agree i should have included link to the other websites where this question is also is posted

Aditya‭ wrote 9 months ago · edited 9 months ago

infact i also posted the questions on stackexchange and mathoverflow... didn't got any satisfactory answer.... and for reasons beyond my scope the questions got deleted... i still don't know why

i can only request you to stop or atleast remove the comments stating x-posted, in my questions... i will try to provide link of all other websites where i post the questions .... but atleast i think that wouldn't prevent people who care about the topic or subject in concern from answering the question in their own way, if its possible, and neither would it make people who just want drama to be any happier....

samcarter‭ wrote 9 months ago

"...and you will get different insights from different answers which i think is beneficial for both the OP and other users" That's true, but the people answering should be aware of previous solutions so they can decide themselves if they want to post an additional one. Also other users will only benefit if they actually find the solutions and aren't stuck in the cul-de-sac of one of your questions without being able to find all other versions.