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Comments on What is an applicable way of averaging an everywhere surjective function whose graph has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure?

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What is an applicable way of averaging an everywhere surjective function whose graph has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure?

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Motivation:

In a magazine article on problems and progress in quantum field theory, Wood writes of Feynman path integrals, “No known math procedure can meaningfully average an infinite number of objects covering an infinite expanse of space in general. The path integral is more of a physics philosophy than an exact mathematical recipe.”

According to this answer, the path integral averages a set of functions matching Wood’s description rather than a real function whose graph also matches Wood’s description. Regardless, solving the latter can have applications in physics. (Note, if we can average the function below, we can average any real function.)


$\S$1. Example To Average:

Suppose $f:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$ is an explicit everywhere surjective function whose graph has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure. (The function $f$ is everywhere surjective, when $f[(a,b)]=\mathbb{R}$ for all non-empty intervals $(a,b)$.)

This function aligns with the motivation. Here is an explicit example:

Consider a Cantor set $\mathcal{C}\subseteq[0,1]$ with Hausdorff dimension $0$. Now consider a countable disjoint union $\cup_{m\in\mathbb{N}}\,\mathcal{C}_m$ such that each $\mathcal{C}_m$ is the image of $\mathcal{C}$ by some affine map and every open set $O\subseteq[0,1]$ contains $\mathcal{C}_m$ for some $m$. Such a countable collection can be obtained by e.g. at letting $\mathcal{C}_{m}$ be contained in the biggest connected component of $[0,1]\setminus(\mathcal{C}_1\cup\dots\cup \mathcal{C}_{m-1})$ (with the center of $\mathcal{C}_m$ being the middle point of the component).

Note that $\cup_m \mathcal{C}_m$ has Hausdorff dimension $0$, so $\left(\cup_m \mathcal{C}_m\right)\times[0,1]\subseteq\mathbb{R}^2$ has Hausdorff dimension one.

Now, let $g:[0,1]\to\mathbb{R}$ such that $g|_{\mathcal{C}_m}$ is a bijection $\mathcal{C}_m\to\mathbb{R}$ for all $m$ (all of them can be constructed from a single bijection $\mathcal{C}\to\mathbb{R}$, which can be obtained without choice, although it may be ugly to define) and outside $\cup_m \mathcal{C}_m$ let $g$ be defined by $g(x)=h(x)$, where $h:[0,1]\to\mathbb{R}$ has a graph with Hausdorff dimension $2$ (this doesn't require choice either).

Then, the function $g$ has a graph with Hausdorff dimension $2$ and is everywhere surjective, but its graph has Lebesgue measure $0$ because it is a graph (so it admits uncountably many disjoint vertical translates).

Note, we can make the construction with union of $\mathcal{C}_m$ rather explicit as follows. Split the binary expansion of $x$ as strings of size with a power of two, say $x=0.1101000010\ldots$ becomes $(s_0,s_1,s_2,\ldots)=(1,10,1000,\ldots)$. If this sequence eventually contains only strings of the form $0\cdots0$ or $1\cdots 1$, say after $s_k$, then send it to $y=\sum_{i>0}\epsilon_{i}2^{-i}$, where $s_{k+i}=\epsilon_i\cdots\epsilon_i$. Otherwise, send it to the explicit continuous function $h$ given by the linked article. This will give you something from $[0,1)\to[0,1)$

Finally, compose an explicit (reasonable) bijection from $[0,1)$ to $\mathbb{R}$. In this case, the construction can be easily adapted so that the $[0,1]$ or $[0,1)$ target space is actually $(0,1)$, then compose with $t\mapsto(1-2x)/(x^2-x)$.


While reading this post, consider the following:

Question: Similar to my attempt in Section $\S$3, how does one define a leading question that chooses a "satisfying" and finite average for an explicit everywhere surjective function whose graph has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure?


$\S$2. Problem With "Current Mean" And Its Replacement

Since the integral of $f$ w.r.t. Hausdorff measure in its dimension is undefined (i.e., the graph of $f$ has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure), the expected value of $f$ is undefined.

Thus, take the mean of a sequence of bounded functions with different domains converging to $f$ (when it exists). For the sake of application, we want the mean to be finite.

The problem is depending on the sequence of bounded functions chosen, the expected value of a sequence of bounded functions converging to $f$ can be one of several values (when it exists). In fact, the set of all $f\in\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$—where two sequences of bounded functions converging to $f$ have non-equivalent expected values (when either exist)—forms a prevalent “full measure” subset of $\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$.

Definition 2.1 (Prevalent/Shy Sets)

Let $X$ be a completely metrizable topological space. A Borel set $E\subset X$ is said to be prevalent if there exists a Borel measure $\mu$ on $X$ such that:

  • $0<\mu(C)<\infty$ for some compact subset $C$ of $X$, and
  • the set $E+x$ has full $\mu$-measure (that is, the complement of $E+x$ has measure zero) for all $x\in X$.

More generally, a subset $F$ of $X$ is prevalent if $F$ contains a prevalent Borel Set.

Moreover:

  • The complement of a prevalent set is a shy set

Hence:

  • If $F\subset X$ is prevalent, we say "almost every" element of $X$ lies in $F$.
  • If $F\subset X$ is shy, we say "almost no" element of $X$ lies in $F$.

In the example of Section $\S$1, the expected value of a sequence of bounded functions converging to $f$ is one of several values (when it exists): i.e., since the center of a sequence of each bounded function's graph would vary—depending on the sequence of bounded functions chosen—the expected value of this sequence is any value w.r.t. the 2nd coordinate of the center. (We call the "center" the reference point $\mathbf{R}\in\mathbb{R}^2$.)


$\S$3. Solution to the Problems in $\S$2 Using an Answer to a Question

Hence, we need a useful way of choosing a “satisfying” expected value of all $f\in\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$ that is finite for neither a prevelant nor shy (Definition 2.1) subset of $\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$. There are many ways but one involves an answer to a leading question (i.e., using a choice function). Note that this should have an application in physics.

For instance, the leading question can be defined w.r.t. four criteria:

  1. the chosen sequences of bounded functions, which converge to an arbitrary $\mathsf{f}\in\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$, have the same finite expected value. (This means that the chosen sequences are equivalent to each other. However, when there exists a $\mathsf{f}\in\mathbb{R}^{\mathbb{R}}$—where a sequence of bounded functions converging to $\mathsf{f}$ have a non-equivalent expected value compared to the expected value of each chosen sequence—the sequence then is non-equivalent to the chosen sequences. Moreover, if one chosen sequence out of all chosen sequences satisfy a criteria, then so do all the other chosen sequences.)
  2. If 1. is true, the metric entropy (see Edit 1) of the chosen sequence of each bounded function's graph increases at a rate linear or superlinear to compared to that of every "non-equivalent" sequence of each bounded function's graph (i.e., the chosen "non-equivalent" sequences of bounded functions satisfy 1.).
    • Edit 1: If criteria 2. is unclear, see the original paper (i.e., "families" are a generalization of sequences and the metric entropy is assumed to be the "measure"). If the assumptions are incorrect, please correct me.
  3. If 1. and 2. are true, the absolute difference between the 2nd coordinate of the reference point $\mathbf{R}\in\mathbb{R}^{2}$ and the expected value of the chosen sequence of bounded functions converging to $f$ is minimized w.r.t. the same measurement of every chosen sequence of bounded functions satisfying 1. and 2.
  4. If 1., 2., and 3. are true, the absolute difference between the expected rate of expansion and the actual rate of expansion of the chosen sequence of each bounded function's graph is minimized w.r.t. the same measure of every chosen sequence of each bounded function's graph (i.e., the chosen "non-equivalent" sequences of bounded functions satisfy 1., 2., and 3.).

Restated Question: Similar to my attempt in Section $\S$3, how does one define a leading question that chooses a "satisfying" and finite average for an explicit everywhere surjective function whose graph has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure? (Use the four criteria.)

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1 comment thread

What are you trying to accomplish with this "leading question" notion? (6 comments)
What are you trying to accomplish with this "leading question" notion?
Derek Elkins‭ wrote 9 months ago

As your link to Wikipedia indicates, "leading question" is not a mathematical term. What are you trying to accomplish with this notion of "leading question"? Why can't you just put forward the notion of measure or whatever that you want and prove that it satisfies the desired properties. Also prove that it generalizes other notions or at least contains interesting classes of examples to avoid having a false implies anything situation.

Why do you think this "leading question" framing is necessary or beneficial?

bharathk98‭ wrote 9 months ago

A leading question can have answer which defines a “choice function”. This choice function then chooses equivelant sequences of bounded functions converging to $f$, where equivelant sequences of bounded functions converging to $f$ have the same finite expected value (when it exists) for an explicit everywhere surjective function.

As stated earlier, the original expected value of an explicit everywhere surjective $f$ in the post is undefined. (This is because the graph of $f$ has Hausdorff dimension $2$ with zero $2$-d Hausdorff measure and hence division by zero.) No matter what measure we use the original average will never exist.

Derek Elkins‭ wrote 9 months ago

The term "leading question" suggests that the one asking has an intended answer that the question is leading toward. If you are trying to define a notion you're calling a "leading question" then 1) this seems like a bad name, 2) why link to Wikipedia which isn't using your definition, and 3) what is this notion giving you?

Again, why not just define a "choice function" or, if you can't explicitly define it, give conditions which characterize it or, at least, give conditions which constrain the space of possible "choice functions".

No one can answer your question because you haven't defined what "leading question" means in any mathematically meaningful way. You haven't define what "satisfying" means at all.

Are you asking for a predicate which characterizes (i.e. uniquely specifies) a sequence of bounded functions and satisfies 1-4? Does "satisfying" just mean it satisfies the predicate? If so, that's completely redundant and (clearly) leads to confusion.

bharathk98‭ wrote 9 months ago

Yes, the term "leading question" suggests I want an intended answer that the question is leading towards. (In this case, the answer should help give a "satisfying", finite expected value depending on the reference point and actual rate of expansion).

I tried to look up a mathematical definition that desribes this, and google lead me to the "leading question". I wanted a credible link, so I tried wikipedia. (I should have looked more carefully and realized it was not a math definition.)

When I tried answering the "leading question" in my paper at the end of the original post (sorry for the writing), the choice function in Section 6 ended up being really complicated.

I did give conditions to the choice function with criteria 1-4. Perhaps, you are right: I am asking for predicate which characterizes (i.e., uniquely specifies) a sequence of bounded functions and satisfies 1-4.

But why is it completely redundant and (clearly) leads to confusion. How do I fix this?

bharathk98‭ wrote 8 months ago · edited 8 months ago

I got rid of the confusing link to the leading question and made edits to the post to make it clear. Are still unsure of how to fix this post? (If you have a math stack exchange account, try editing here. If you are still interested, type out a similar post on Math Overflow or this website.)

Edit: I corrected the second paragraph. What else should I correct?

Skipping 1 deleted comment.

bharathk98‭ wrote 8 months ago · edited 8 months ago

I tried one last time. I made edits to this post using a response to one of my comments in a math stack exchange chat.